Well if you look at the audience at hardcore shows, that skews heavily male also, but then again much modern hardcore is heavily metal-influenced. I do agree with you that indie rock, non-hardcore punk and other experimental/interesting music have much more female participation than metal, prog and hardcore do. Then again, I don’t think that has as much to do with virtuosity or lack thereof as it has to do with the fact that all of the genres I mentioned are less inherently macho/dick-measuring styles of music than metal, hardcore or prog.

As far as female metal guitar virtuosos, though, I’m surprised that you didn’t mention The Great Kat. She’s like a female Yngwie Malmsteen or something. Not that it’s necessarily a good thing, but I’m just saying.

— Matthew Berlyant    2006-04-26 14:37    #

Oysh…the Great Kat. Not only is she sort of a female Yngwie Malmsteen or something (“a neo-classical shredder”), she brings an, um, “interesting,” female, s&m dominatrix kind of imagery to the procedings. I didn’t include her because 1) she is so on her own planet that it would have only re-emphasized my argument that there are so few people like her and 2) provided more ammo for people to say “thank god there aren’t more people like her,” since all she really does are super high-speed classical covers on a Flying-V. Maybe, with her egomaniacal chest-thumping, testosterone-fueled self-adulation, dominatrix babe character, and limited song-writing skills, she is actually making a post-modern critique of the phallocentric, Malmsteenian, guitar-virtuoso culture.

— ari abramowitz    2006-04-26 15:15    #

I think you’re giving her too much credit there, Ari, though it’s an interesting (and amusing) theory. It’s sort of like saying that Bush & co’s daily screw-ups are really part of a master plan to show America and the world just how wrong neo-conservatism is. If only it were true.

— Matthew Berlyant    2006-04-26 18:17    #

Maybe because people ask questions like “Why Can’t Gurlz Shred?” It’s not that they can’t shred, it’s that few choose to do so.

That’s the real question. “Why don’t girls shred?”

And perhaps the implicit sexism in the suggestion that women can’t shred might point at why they don’t.

— Jeremy Amos    2006-04-26 21:06    #

I am wide open to your thoughts on this matter, Jeremy. You’re right that the question is why don’t—rather than why can’t—gurlz shred. Although maybe an equally valid question would be, “Why is ‘gurlz’ spelled with a ‘u’ and ‘z’?”

— ari abramowitz    2006-04-26 23:20    #

Since I am the ‘female correspondent’ who asked the initial question, I thought I’d drop a few cents in here. First off, I think this question is great. The idea that virtuosity is a masculine virtue, however, doesn’t cut it. You said yourself that there are female virtuosos in classical music, so it is impossible that virtuosity in a masculine trait alone. Just because there aren’t many women in metal or prog doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be. To me that’s like saying there aren’t many African American men in metal and prog because virtuosity is a white man’s trait. It just doesn’t make sense.

Next you add in that little snarky college bit about how your professor might say that “women are told by society that they can only be mothers and housewives.” Come on. That’s ridiculous. I know you didn’t go to college in the 1950’s, and that was probably the last time women were told such things by society. It’s incredibly more complex than that. Even if a particular woman doesn’t care what society thinks, there are still institutionalized systems within society working against her. Just like racism. It is insidious and pervasive.

And even though there may be more women in punk or indie rock or whatever, there still are far far fewer women in rock than there are men. Why would we still call bands with all women “girl groups” then? It’s obviously still a novelty to some extent. Basically, my point is that there’s a whole proccess at work that begins at day one and that you cannot just explain away by deeming virtuosity a ‘masculine virtue.’ But I’d sure love to see the gender makeup of metal and prog in 50 years…

— Kristen Sollee    2006-04-27 02:56    #

There are dozens of female virtuosos in classical music, pick your instrument. There are plenty of women who know their ways up and down a fretboard and there could be plenty more women with instrumental skills in the middle of rock bands. Yet there still aren’t many. Is the “money shot” answer to my question really that “there aren’t many technically skilled women in rock/pop because society still doesn’t approve of it?” Maybe that’s it, and I don’t have any data to say that it’s not, but it just feels kind of empty, kind of banal. Is that really all that’s going on here?

— Ari Abramowitz    2006-04-27 15:03    #

I think the problem is definitional, but mostly because you’re confining the search to such a narrow musical realm. Specifically, I’m going to focus on guitar, since that’s the main instrument of the style of rock you’re concentrating on (I’ll skip classical and jazz, which you have already acknowledged). There are loads of talented female guitarists: Memphis Minnie, Elizabeth Cotten, Rory Block, Bonnie Raitt, Joni Mitchell, Ani Difranco, Patti Larkin, Kaki King, Jennifer Batten, Badi Assad, Lita Ford, Jonatha Brooke, Vashti Bunyan, Pat Place, Gillian Welch, Wendy of Wendy & Lisa, Debbie Davies, Deborah Coleman, Joanna Connor, Shannon Curfman, Katie Elevitch—I could go on and on. (There is a new album on Vanguard, compiled by Larkin, called La Guitara: Gender Bending Strings that features a number of these women and more and is designed specifically to naysay the “women aren’t great guitarists” canard.)

So, what do we see about most of that list? There are plenty of technically skilled guitarists, but aside from Batten and Ford, they aren’t metal/hard rock guitarists (prog is such a tiny genre now that I’m not going to bother with it, which is not to say that I don’t love it). There are plenty of blues guitarists, however, which is a closely related style; Davies, Connor, Block, etc. have the chops to shift their style slightly – they just don’t, either because they don’t want to or because they aren’t wanted in that genre. The other thing about that list is that most people haven’t heard of the majority of the names on it.

I think there are several factors at work that result in phenomenon under discussion here. First, metal/hard rock audiences, and maybe musicians, are not as accepting of female instrumentalists as other genres. In particular, women attracted to heavy music can clearly see that they are much more welcome in the anti-virtuoso field of punk. For all I know, the guitarists in Sleater-Kinney could shred, but we’ll never know because it would be like Robert Fripp joining the Ramones – out of place and philosophically contradictory. When women see that a Jennifer Batten is as good as Eddie Van Halen but hardly gets anywhere in the biz, they draw an obvious lesson from that.

Second, there are a lot of genres out there, and most of them are a lot more popular than metal/hard rock and thus more likely to attract talent. Without some emotional/philosophical commitment to metal, why would anybody go into it now? This is even more true of prog.

Third, there tends to be an insistence that female artists be exceptionally good-looking for purposes of marketing. This demand is clearly not as strongly insisted on for male artists, though it’s increasing. The average-looking women are out there, making fine music, but they don’t get the promotional dollars thrown their way like a Beyonce does, so fewer people notice.

Finally, perception becomes reality. If it’s assumed that metal/hard rock audiences don’t want female performers, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Giving the people what they want is the first commandment of mainstream music nowadays.

— Steve Holtje    2006-04-27 19:33    #

I beg to differ regarding Sleater-Kinney. I saw them play Mercury Lounge last year a few months before The Woods came out and Carrie Brownstein was all over the fretboard like a mad-woman and I mean that as a compliment. I mean she’s not The Great Kat or anything, but I think S-K are already moving in that more classic rock and hard rock-influenced direction.

Everything else you wrote was right on the money, though. I especially like that you mentioned Pat Place.

— Matthew Berlyant    2006-04-27 21:39    #

Steve,
Thank you for your thoughtful and extensive notes. Your knowledge is impressive and is sincerely appreciated. As you acknowledged, we’ve already pointed out the multitude of female instrumental excellence in genres such as classical, roots, and blues.

Let’s try to focus on rock/pop by starting with Jennifer Batten: excellent guitarist, high-profile for a few years, and garnered some legit interest. She may or may not have been as good as Eddie Van Halen, but what’s more important to her career is that she never wrote the hits that he did nor did she change the way the electric guitar is played. That she has “hardly gotten as far in the biz” as EVH is hardly proof of institutional sexism, nor should it be fairly read as a cautionary tale to all women who would be guitar heroes. She was an accomplished student of the instrument who was able to make a career as, essentially, a professor and writer of that instrument.

You ask why would anybody go into metal now? Assuming the person in question likes the music, the answer is that metal is a great space for an aspiring guitar player to push their technical skills to excedingly demanding levels. Interestingly, in my opinion, Metal, as a scene, probably cares least about a guitarist’s physical appearance than any other scene. Metal is nothing if not meritricious. There’s probably something other than most women’s appearance that keeps them away from pursuing metal (maybe the metal guys’ appearance?). Either way, I’d still love to hear of more women in the death metal, progressive hard core and tech metal scenes.

That leaves us with rock/pop, indie or otherwise. While it’s hard to exclaim virtuosity in this setting, we can surely see who at least plays well: New Pornographers and Arcade Fire both do a perfectly good, if not blazingly technical, job (only one female in each); Boredoms’ Yoshimi, however, is an excellent drummer (but only a so-so guitarist); all of Sleater Kinney rock hard and well (although that doesn’t make them Rush, or even Soundgarden); Rachel’s are well-skilled (although they can barely be called ‘rock’ or ‘pop’). Regina Spektor’s work has been idiosyncratic and original. Etc.

I know that classical, folk and blues gurlz can shred. But what’s up with rock/pop? I’m sadly still not seeing it. Is it all because of the “looks” thing? That’s definitely a lame part of the biz and accounts for some of this problem, but what about the entire indie universe? Is that also entirely beholden to the same totalitarian marketing demands as the mainstream industry? I have faint suspicions that there’re some deeper things going on that I can’t put my finger on just yet. Till then, I’m just happy to hear about some more gallant women, shredding with the best.

— ari abramowitz    2006-04-28 02:04    #

Actually there are 2 females in both The Arcade Fire and The New Pornographers. It’s just that Regine Chassagne (AF) and Neko Case (NPs), respectively, get much more attention than Sarah Neufeld and Kathryn Calder (who admittedly was first hired by The NPs’ AC Newman as a touring replacement for Neko, but now both her and Neko are in the band) for a variety of reasons.

Furthermore, their debatable lack of virtuosity doesn’t make me enjoy their music more or less. In fact I would say that in some cases virtuosity hurts because it’s hard to balance the “look at me” attention-hogging that many virtuosos have with songcraft and interesting ideas. I think the real question here is why you seem insistent upon it despite your disclaimer in the third paragraph.

— Matthew Berlyant    2006-04-28 14:25    #

Ari – what are male guitarists called? Men? or Boyz?

It may not seem like a big thing, but language can say a lot about unintentional classifications and stereotpyes.

I’d also argue that the “shredding” typical in metal (and to a lesser degree prog) is agressive, confrontational, even adversarial. I might even call it as “cocksure.” And I personally find that a lot of the material is excessively technical for the sake of showcasing technical skill, which, at least to me, comes across as agressive self-promotion. I don’t have time to do the research right now – but seems to be there have been any number of gender studies that indicate that women are less likely to get actively involved in openly confrontational situations and are less likely to engage in blatant self-promotion, both factors which could very well come into play here. (Also note that societally we tend to react fairly negatively to aggressive, self-promoting women—I couldn’t tell you how many times I’ve heard people refer to women who engage in agressive business practices, for instance, referred to as “ruthless bitches,” while similar practices from a male counterpart is considered shrewd business.

That’s not to say that stereotypes are universally true, or even particularly accurate, but stereotypes to tend to be the basis for initial assessment – and a negative stereotype is definitely a barrier to entry for women entering the male dominated metal scene.

On a different note, I’m guessing you meant to say that “if nothing else, metal is not meritricious.” But I’d argue that many of the “less attractive” guitarists in metal compensate for their appearance with skill, or play up the “ugly” factor – “Man that Lemmy is one ugly sod, but damn can he play.” I also think that the physical appearance is only a non-factor in male musicians – and I think that applies across the board, not just to metal.

Hopefully the above makes sense – not a lot of time to edit right now, but I thought my previous comment deserved some clarification.

— Jeremy Amos    2006-04-28 16:34    #

Jeremy,
Male guitarists are “dudes.” And, yes, your follow-up clarified much of what you began on your first comment. I understand the aggressively self-promotional shredding you’re referring to but that’s like any technique in an inferior artist’s hands. The Fripps, McLaughlins, J. Becks, E VanHalens etc know how to turn their chops into artistry and, sometimes, even into pop hits. As for aggressive self-promotion, it ain’t just a man’s world since Madonna’s clearly on her own planet (with plenty of Paris Hiltons, Courtney Loves, Mariah Careys on another planet, no too far away, with Donald Trump somewhere in the middle).

But those are all secondary issues. Of course there’s nothing inherently musically interesting about extreme chops. Of course, good music can be made by relatively unskilled musicians. However, skills help. And the best music often comes from people who have their skills mastered to a strong enough degree that they may use those skills to articulate their deepest musical visions—however “simple” or “minimal.” Of course, guys and gals can both be aggressive and self-promotional buttheads. And, yes, there is clearly a certain amount of beauty double-standardizing going on but…

...the major thrust of my inquiry is not whether boyz or gurlz are nicer, whether complex music is inherently better or worse than simple music. And I don’t care if people play death metal or post rock.

All I’m asking is why there aren’t more great female rock/pop instrumentalists (of whatever stripe of rock/pop) right now. I would have thought that most of the traditional sexist barriers have been brought down by now, leaving the gates open. Hasn’t really happened. Either sexism’s as high as ever, technical skill’s as uncool as ever, or subcultures and their ideologies are simply as oppositional as they’ve always been. I’m not sure I see that much hard data for any of them.

— Ari Abramowitz    2006-04-28 18:41    #

Maybe it’s because their fingers are too short?

— Dan Holway    2006-04-29 18:54    #

This 14-year-old gal can “shred”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCJd-HofY8&search=Steve%20Vai

The music is hideous, but maybe her taste will improve as she does.

— Dan Holway    2006-04-30 03:31    #